Trinity, Oneness, or the Bible?

Although mainstream apostate Christianity assumes it is a clear doctrine, the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible.
We are neither "Oneness", "Trinitarian", or whatever label people try to use.

We accept all scripture, even if we cannot understand it perfectly.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

Our position is simply to accept the unleavened bread of scripture without adding words to the text.
The words "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit" are in scripture and of course, WE BELIEVE each and every verse.

I may not be able to explain every verse, but we believe and confess the Bible says what it says.
When we left the church world, we surrendered all of our doctrinal "Statement of Faith", our "We Believe" lists, and traditional teachings in order to go to The Book of God's Word. To become a "new wineskin" we simply began to read the Bible, not read-into it things not stated in order to get back to the "unleavened bread" of Holy scripture.

This "trinity" discussion began as Joe and midnightcall accused David Eells and Rory of heresy and other things for not proclaiming faith in the Trinity.

What follows is a debate: the "Trinity", the "Oneness", and what actually is or is not in the scriptures which we call "The Bible".

Joe:
re: the trinity,
1John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Col 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

In the bible it says that there is one God. And yet all through the bible it refers To the Father being God, To the Word or Jesus being God, and to the Holy Ghost being God.

Thus the doctrine of the Trinity One God reveals Himself in three persons.
When Jesus was praying in the garden He was praying to the Father. Jesus was God in the flesh.

This is biblical Christianity.

Joe: This is biblical Christianity even though the terms are not in the bible..
rory: ???? Un-Biblical is Biblical?

Joe:
Anything other than this is a cult plain and simple. No, the actual word Trinity is not in the bible, but the doctrine is.
The words rapture, cocaine, and racism are not in the bible either, but God's word speaks to each of these issues.
Any teaching like oneness or David Eels teaching that God is not a Trinity is a doctrine of the Devil. Run from it. Stick with the Word of God.

rory: you said "Stick with the Word of God". If we do, we find the trinity/ 3 persons/ co-equal/ Holy Trinity, and other trinitarian terms are NOT in the Bible but were invented after the scriptures were given.

1John 5:7 is not a proveable text. It has no numeric pattern and was added by apostate Christianity.
Dr. Panin established the most accurate translation of the NT scriptures from the Greek texts, and not only do the earliest manuscripts not include the verse, the numeric pattern of scripture is broken if 5:7 is added.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1362.cfm

Joe:
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

rory:
Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Did you speak with anyone at UBM about the "Trinity"? Is it possible those that invented the term "trinity" and the definitions from it are the ones that divided from what the scripture actually says?

Joe:
I did have an e-mail exchange with someone from his website a few some odd years ago. But you are taking those verses out of context as those verses are talking about a brother and an elder who are in the body of Christ. These verses would not apply to rebuking a Mormon, a Muslim, or any other false religion.

Teaching false doctrine is outside the body of Christ.
rory: according to that definition, every denomination has the right to condemn every other denomination with whom they disagree over perceived false doctrine.

Joe: Attacking the very nature of God you do not get any more off base than that. Please repent.
rory: For simply "sticking to the Word" without adding your trintarian terms is off base?

This anti-Trinity doctrine is of demons and needs to be repented of.

It is bringing confusion and dissention to the body of Christ. God is not the author of confusion. I'm not speaking like this to be unkind but these ungodly doctrines need to be rebuked strongly and confronted head on, because of the harm they bring. I fear they will shipwreck the faith of some.

Just because someone does nice things, prays, reads the bible, and is generous and giving doesn't make someones doctrine right or even make someone a Christian.
rory: (so he is saying a non-trinitarian is not a Christian even when they accept the scripture and faith in Christ )
When does faith in the Trinity become the deciding factor in determining a Christian? I thought it was faith in Jesus Christ that saves a believer? If the word "Trinity" was not invented 'till 200 ad, you just condemned all of the early Christians and NT writers.

Joe: Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Rory:
they accused Paul of heresy too, but we could say the trinitarian side uses non-scriptural terms which are "perverse".

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Lynn jumps in:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Rory:
Great verse: "trinity", "three persons" "co-equal" etc. are not in scripture, but found in tradition.

Jesus IS the WORD. The words you believe in are not in The Word.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Rory: (to Lynn)
If you were a disciple in the year 90-225 AD, you would not believe in the trinity because the word had not even been invented yet.

Because the Holy Trinity had not been invented until about 200 ad, that means all of the apostles and New Testament disciples were heretics because none of them professed the trinity!

Since none of the writers used the analogy of water/steam/ice or egg/yolk/white which are ridiculous comparisons, we have maintained to stay right with scripture and just let the Word say what it says, without trying to repackage and re-label what God said into man-made leaven.

(She got very frustrated for that response.)

Who are we to invent "explanations" for who God is with words not even stated in scripture?

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

rory: (to Joe and Lynn)
Neither "oneness" nor "trinity" are scripture. Yes, I know all the verses that support both arguments.
We have no disagreement with any of the verses, the scripture stands and speaks for itself, and does not contradict itself.

Both "sides" (Oneness-Trinity) cannot adequately explain or reconcile all verses pertaining to the Godhead no matter how hard they wrestle.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
and
1Jn 1:3
that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:
(not the Holy Spirit too?)

What happened here? poof-B-gone to the 3rd person of the trinity????
(there are many verses the trinity cannot reconcile because the "3rd Person" is omitted.)

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me
Was Mary with child by a person or the Holy Spirit?
The spirit of a person does not mean they are a separate person from himself...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Beauty4Ashes

Here is a tough question:

1. When Jesus prayed was he talking to himself?

Rory:
Psalms 65:2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. The Son of Man prayed in His flesh..

2 Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared

>>>>>>>>

Beauty4Ashes

2. Was Jesus His own father and His own Son?

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Galatians 4:4 when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; ("made of a woman") and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

rev1: 8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, 18 and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

.............

Beauty4Ashes:

Recently I discussed this matter with my eight year old daughter, I told her that I did not quite understand it but I wanted her to know that sometimes the things that she hears in church are not exactly correct. I told her that we have to read the bible and follow what God says.

Well, she told me her version of the Godhead, which is as follows:

In the beginning there was God the Father, who had Jesus and the Holy Spirit inside of Him. God has no fleshy body, so we cannot see Him. Then when He wanted to show himself to the world, He took some of himself and put flesh upon it and that was Jesus.

So that now we could see Him. So Jesus came down to earth and was born as a baby and then died for our sins and then went back up into heaven to God His father. Well since we still need Jesus to remind God to forgive our sins, then God did not take Jesus back inside Him. God just put Jesus to stand beside Him always.

I thought that what she said really made sense. So based on what she said I further thought that, after Jesus went back into heaven, God also took out the Holy Spirit out of Himself the same Spirit that is in Jesus, and put it inside each of us. That way, as Jesus said we would never be alone... we will always have His spirit. So because we have the spirit of Jesus, who is God's son, we call God, Father, just as Jesus does.

Here is a scripture that seems to support the view that the spirit of Christ within us makes us recognize Jesus' father as our father:

Galatians 4:6-'Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba Father.'

Thank you very much for your patience. Please feel free to correct me or comment on what I have said.

Rory: That, my dear sister, is a better explanation than any theologian could give by far!

............................

Originally Posted by Lara:

Hi, Rory!
What about this one-

John 14:28- "...If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

>>>>>>>>>

rory:
it fits with this:

John 20:17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

1. trinitarian doctrine says they are "co-equal" How can the Father be greater?

2. What happened to the Holy Spirit 3rd person?

Trinitarian doctrine is stated as: "The one true God exists eternally in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit". They are co-equal, co-existenet, and co-eternal"

The problem we have is not a single verse says anything about "three persons", "co-equal", etc."

WHO invented these terms since they were never given in scripture?

If you were a Christian in 90 ad, you would never had heard of some of these explanations that came later, and that is another reason the end-time disciples are to keep the feast of the Unleavened Bread", the un-added to Word of God.
None of us learned those unscriptural terms from reading our Bibles, someone told us those "explanations".

Here are three reasons to speak the Word, and not manmade doctrine:

1. 1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;

2. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3. Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Since "three persons" "oneness" "trinity" "co-existent", "second person" "third person", triune", etc.
did not proceed out of the mouth of God, and are not found in the oracles of scripture, and Paul by the Holy Ghost said in
1 Corinthians 4:6...that ye might learn in us not to go beyond that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

The point I am trying to make is that using un-scriptural terminology misleads people.
If God never says He is three persons, then us humans should not either.
The trinity doctrine cannot reconcile many scriptures, just as the oneness doctrine cannot reconcile many verses..

For instance, in the verse Mt 28:19, notice it says ...baptize in THE Name....

of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Spirit".

Where in that phrase does it say "three persons"?

And in Matthew 28:19, what is The name?

It is singular as any English teacher will testify.

If the sentence is diagrammed like they used to teach, it proves the Name is a singular name.

What is the name they baptized into?.........

........................>>>>>>>>>>>>

Originally Posted by joe christopherson
Rory responds in red

Joe:
1John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

OK, first of all, this verse has no numeric pattern and was added to the text. This is the weakest possible "verse" for belief in the unscriptural trinity.

Col 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

In the bible it says that there is one God.
rory: Well thank God, we do have scripture for that. Here is a verse:
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

Joe: And yet all through the bible it refers To the Father being God, To the Word or Jesus being God, and to the Holy Ghost being God.

Thus the doctrine of the Trinity One God reveals Himself in three persons.

rory: "THUS" !??? Thus..three persons... again, where in all of the scripture is "three persons"...?
"ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORD lest HE REPROVE THEE AND THOU BE FOUND A LIAR"

Joe: When Jesus was praying in the garden He was praying to the Father. Jesus was God in the flesh.

rory: more accurately, "The Son of Man" prayed... God does not pray to God.

Joe: This is biblical Christianity even though the terms are not in the bible..
rory: ???? Un-Biblical is Biblical? Unscriptural is scriptural? Something God never said is what he meant?

Joe: Anything other than this is a cult plain and simple.
rory: The cult of Catholicism invented the word "trinity"....

Joe: No, the actual word Trinity is not in the bible, but the doctrine is. The words rapture, cocaine, and racism are not in the bible either, but God's word speaks to each of these issues.

We need to be able "speak as an oracle of God" when we address these subjects also..., but please, let's not chase other rabbits

Any teaching like oneness or David Eels teaching that God is not a Trinity is a doctrine of the Devil. Run from it. Stick with the Word of God.

rory:
HUH? You just contradicted yourself..What you said is exactly contrary to Paul who said.. "not to go beyond that which is written"

"trinity", "three persons" is not in the Word of God, yet Joe says "stick with the word of God".

Joe: Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

rory: This is exactly what Catholicism did when the Catholic fathers came up with an apostate explanation of who God is and what Joe is doing by adding to the Word of God.

>>>>>>>>>>

rory: (repeats)
It is amazing how people will go to such extremes to defend words not found in scripture.

Here are three reasons to speak the Word, and not manmade doctrine:

1. 1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God

2. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3. Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

"three persons" "triune" "oneness" "trinity" "co-existent", "second person" "third person" etc. did not proceed out of the mouth of God, and are not found in the oracles of scripture, and Paul by the Holy Ghost said in 1 Corinthians 4:6...that ye might learn in us not to go beyond that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. -which is exactly what trintiarians are doing...

Before you falsely accuse one of Gods servants, go here and you can here exactly what he does say:

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=sabs-OBS

Scroll down to 8-4-04 there are several audios.. He talks about the UPC which he left 30 years ago, and talks about trinity, oneness, or the truth...

BTW: audio 2, at the 10:20 minute mark, he is refuting oneness teaching from scriptures..

>>>>>>>>>

Lynn jumps in and debates:

Quote: Originally Posted by themidnightcall

Rory - in all respect are you saying you do not believe in the Godhead

rory:
The "Godhead" simply means divinity, see (the Greek Lexicon) below.

No, I do not believe in the terminology that you cannot find in scripture, don't you understand?

Please post the "three persons" verse that states those words. if you cannot, Lynn you err, and do not know the Word.

Lynn: what many call the Trinity - mentioned in this scripture below and you believe, and as the oneness denominations believe that there is no trinity - a simple yes or no would be good.

rory: I believe there is no such word "trinity" in all the scripture.

I am not "oneness", as I have repeadedly stated.

Lynn: I have read both your posts above about the Trinity not being mentioned in the word - but you can see Godhead is and what about Jesus Baptism?

rory: Then Paul and the other writers were in error because they never confessed the trinity either, -where does it say "three persons" in the passage, it says the Holy Spirit appeared as a "dove" not a person. No one saw three persons at Jesus' baptism.

Lynn:

What about they were all involved in Jesus resurrection.

What about God saying he was I AM and Jesus saying he is I AM in revelations the first and the last?

I will get these scriptures for you in a little while I think you would see this in a differant light.

rory: There is a blank place below for you to list them.

__________________________

Lynn: Jesus is at the right hand side of the Father in heaven and the seven spirit's of God next to his throne is the Holy Spirit.

rory: -HUH? Now the seven spirits are the One Spirit? =this is getting really confusing... Lynn, I hope you are paying attention here:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body

Phil 1:27 that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Lynn: Jesus said I and the father are one.
rory: Don't you mean three? Jesus said, If you have seen me you have seen the Father.

The Godhead is the Divinity.
rory: No Lynn, the Godhead means "deity the state of being God" -here's the link to a greek lexicon: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/...ng&submit=Find

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, (not them) which is the head of all principality and power:

Lynn: They all three are onmniphacent - omnipresent and omnipotent

rory: Here you are simply repeating words of leaven from apostate Christianity. The first word is "omniscient" BTW.

It means: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

If, as stated, "all three" are omniscient, you have another problem with the trinity. There is something the Son does not know...

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

???????

..................

Rory:
Lynn, now I would like you to post just three verses where any writer saw the three persons, Holy Trinity, A Tri-unity, or three Co-equals, in a heavenly vision.

Here, I will leave a blank space for you. The scripture says we must have 2 or 3 witnesses, please post the verses:

She didn't respond. (others did, rambling points or long pages copied from other sites.)

Lynn, the problem is you do not have understanding of the verses you post. None of them say what you are trying to make them say. You are in error.

You post verses and say they say something that is not in the text. But you think it is there somehow, and if someone does not accept the words not in the text, you think they are wrong about the scripture.

Jesus said "He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said.." (not what you think it says, or what you add to it)

The problem you have with me is that I will not accept what the scripture hath not said... and you are speaking contrary to Paul when he wrote "..not to go beyond the things that are written" .

I accept every verse of scripture without reservation, even if I do not understand it all.

If you were a oneness person, we would be having the same debate and I would be posting scriptures the oneness folks cannot explain, just like the "trinitarian" verses you cannot explain as pointed out in some of the verses you posted above.

As trinitarianism is the product of apostate catholicism, and the terminology used to explain it is all unscriptural, I cannot accept it.

Likewise the oneness side cannot explain the many texts which point to the Father Son and Holy Spirit spoken of in scripture.

The truth is found only within scripture, which is what I affirm and believe.
with all respect, in Christ,

-rory

>>>>>>>>>>

K-Bro Quote:
we know the scripture says:

1) the Father is God

2) the Son is God

3) the Holy Spirit is God

and yet, the Lord our God is one..

no.. we don't understand it.. but we believe..

>>>>>>>>>

rory:

Yes, see we do believe, and we call on the name of Jesus for our salvation.

Every post we put up was in oppostion only to the use of unscriptural language which causes division and confusion. -and make Gods Word of no effect.

In order to be a new wineskin, it requires a willingness to surrender all of our beliefs, statement of faith, etc. And the Lord will then be able to give us His teaching from the Word, not from the doctrines of men.

Paul did this with all his Bible college learning and beliefs, counting them as "dung'. God reprogrammed him for three years apart from the church, and when he arrived in Jerusalem, his teaching matched the other apostles.

Luke 14:33 says "except you renounce all that you have, you cannot be my disciple". -All includes all of our traditions as well.

This we did and I have learned more from Him in 4 years than in 24 years church and over 2,500 church services.

God bless you. -rory

>>>>>>>

Lynn: (posted a long quote from another website in support of trintarianism.........

>>>>>>>>>>

Rory:
Lynn, again I ask you to post just three verses where any writer saw three persons in a heavenly vision.

Again, I will leave a blank space for you. The scripture says we must have 2 or 3 witnesses, please post the verses:

Lynn: Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

rory:
Great verse. "trinity", "three persons" "co-equal" etc.

not in scripture, but found in tradition. Jesus IS the WORD. The words you believe in are not in The Word.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rory:
Lynn, I am sorry you cannot answer the questions I posted.

Joe and you only have an argument that appeals to unscriptural terminology.

I have not once denied the scripture, with the exception of the verse Joe tried sneak in from 1In5:7, which was added to the text and has no numeric pattern.

Calling someone a heretic because they hold only to scripture, and not words that came from Catholic tradition is ridiculous, and a trait of those who falsley accused the disciples and Paul.

the three blanks spaces remain unanswered.

Quote: The scripture says we must have 2 or 3 witnesses, please post the verses:
Please, please, Fill in with three verses where any Biblical writer saw "three persons" in a heavenly vision. Joe is welcome to help too.

...............

Originally Posted by themidnightcall/ Lynn:
Rory answers in red

God is one, yet He is eternally expressed in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as evident in the scriptures below.

(Lynn presents her three witnesses for three persons on the throne or seen in heaven)

1. 1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word here being Jesus the Son. This is the Godhead the three one!

2. Acts 2:32-33

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

3. Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

4. John 17:20-22

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Sincerely, Lynn

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

rory:
Quote: Originally Posted by themidnightcall

Lynn: God is one, yet He is eternally expressed in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as evident in the scriptures below.

(Lynn presents her three witnesses for three persons on the throne or seen in heaven)

1. 1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Word here being Jesus the Son. This is the Godhead the three one!

rory: Sorry Lynn. As this verse is not scripture,it was added. There is no numeric pattern. You have eaten "leaven". ???

2. Acts 2:32-33

rory: How in the world did I ever miss that one? "three persons", right there in plain English. ???

3. Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

rory: "T-h-r-e-e- p-e-r-s-o-n-s" yup right there in the words also.... ya got me now..???

4. John 17:20-22

rory: Yes, I see it, "three persons" right there in the verse... it is in the white space between the words...

Lynn: Now those Bereans, Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

rory: Those silly Bereans, they somehow never read in their scriptures, "trinity" "three persons" "co-equal, co-eternal" co-existent"...

Paul, James John, they all had to wait untill 200 ad for someone to invent the word trinity for everyone to believe in so they would not be in heresy.

The "three persons" of the Godhead all had to wait for Catholicism to come along to explain it for us, because the men that gave scripture never once used those words....

Thank you for showing me the words "three persons" is really written in the words of scripture,

and you really answered this question well:

"Fill in with three verses where any Biblical writer s-a-w "three persons" in a heavenly vision."
Hint: Isaiah, Daniel, John, Stephen ....

and How many did Moses see?
as in see: "To Observe, look upon, watch with eyes", as in people in the Bible who actually SAW either one, two, or three on the throne?.......

(warning: It is 2am. late at night I get humor attacks.)

now seriously, I say.......... God bless

>>>>>>>>

arcticmonster2003

Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Alaska

Posts: 116

I understand what Rory is saying perfectly, the problem is in the word "persons" or "personalities".

God has certainly revealed himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Here is where the problems come in trying to explain the nature of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now three persons are three, not one. Example Jim, Joe, and Harry. They are not 1 person, they are three, with three distinct personalities.

Now to say three personalities means three persons, not one.

If three persons or personalities are one in power, then that is a counsel.

I do not believe God has revealed himself as a counsel at all, this would be heresy.

What about the word personality, with three personalities, then that is three people, every person only has one personality.

Thats the problem, the words person, and personality are just not quite right, they just don't work well.

3 people is 3 people, not one. 3 persons are 3 persons. 3 personalities are 3 different people, not one. Since these words are exlusively used in this sense, even the dictionary had to specifically add the trinity doctine to the definition of the word person, because using the standard definition of person, it just doesn't work, 3 persons are 3 different people.

quote from Merriam online dictionary - Definition for person

Quote:1: human , individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes

2: a character or part in or as if in a play : guise

3 a: one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b: the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures

4 archaic: bodily appearance b: the body of a human; also : the body and clothing

5: the personality of a human being : self

6: one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties

7: reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

— per·son·hood \-\ noun

— in person : in one's bodily presence

Did you catch that, in order for the definition to make sense, they (the dictionary) define the trinity not as persons, but modes of being, because the word persons does not work, not by any stretch.

3 persons are 3 people, not 1. There is no precedence to use the word person and personality in the manner the trinity attempts to, hence the necessity of the dictionary to specifically add the trinity as one of the definitions of "person", because the other definitions of person don't work.

Since we can conclude that the definition of the word "person" did not contain the trinity doctine before the trinity doctrine existed, this severly begs the question on how they ever used the word person in the manner they did when making the trinity doctine. It just doesn't work well with the revelation of God I see in the scriptures, person, or personality are the wrong words.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rory:
BTW, the "trinity" is a term invented by Tertullian. -who was not a writer of scripture.

Quote: Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early third century, is credited with using the words "Trinity", "person" and "substance" to explain that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "one in essence – not one in Person".

What is good about this discussion is that those who want to believe God will hold tightly to what the scripture says about God and not the trinitarian jargon used in a vain attempt to explain God.
"Godhead" means the state of being divinity. It does not mean a troika of persons standing or seated around heavens throne.

We could list dozens of scripture that neither the Oneness folks nor the trinitarians can reconcile from their dogma.

But they both call you heretic for not accepting the unscriptural terms they blindly cling to...

The blessing of this discussion is that there are many here who are now searching the word for themselves and asking God for deeper revelation from His Word, not Tertullian or the Catholic church. This is the only reason I have continued this discussion.

Quote: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If it is not the actual WORD from God's mouth, of course we reject it, -need we repeat? "trinity" "three persons" "co-equal, co-eternal.." "three entities" "He is eternally expressed in three persons"

are words and phrases simply not found in God's mouth. Therefore we do not put our faith in those words that God did not speak. Staying Biblical is Biblical.

>>>>>>>

rory:
The Witnesses: Witness from the Throne

Well, I promised to bring witnesses forth who reported what they saw. You will note that BOTH the trinity and oneness views do not match the witnesses report.

First witness Daniel, what did you see?:

1. Daniel. Prophet of God.

Daniel 9: 13

I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven One like unto a son of man, and He came even to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

No "third person" was seen in the span from Daniels day to the end when He "came with the clouds"...

....

This verse troubles the oneness folks, and it does not prove three for the Tertullians trinity either.

>>>>>>>>

Witness 2.

Isaiah. Prophet of God. Caught up to the throne.

Isa. 6:1

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.

2 Above him stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is The LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

This is what Isaiah "saw". nothing about "3 persons".

__________________

Witness # 3. John. Apostle and NT prophet

Rev. 4

1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;

10 the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne, and shall worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

continues into ch 5

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within

5 and one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not; behold, the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath overcome to open the book and the seven seals thereof.

6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came, and he taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.

Witness #4 Stephen

Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

Witness 5 Macaiah:
1kings 22:And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Witness 6 Ezekiel

Ezekiel 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 3) The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him
26-28:
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

His testimony continues:(ch 3)
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.  For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

NONE of these eye witnesses report "three entities" "three persons" or use any of the unscriptural trinitarian or oneness terminolgy in his eyewitness report.

Do you "see" what they "saw"?
No trinitarian can insert a dove, third person, co-equal, third entity into the witnesses statements. That is against God's Law.

Those who claim otherwise are false witnesses.
16 There are six things which the Lord hates; Yea, seven which are an abomination unto him: 19 A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren.

So l will "Let God be true and every man a liar" as we hold fast to what the Word says:

Quote: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If it is not the actual WORD from God's mouth, of course we reject it. need we repeat? "trinity" "three persons" "co-equal, co-eternals, "triunes", " "three entities" " He is eternally expressed in three persons" are simply not found in God's mouth. Therefore we do not put our faith in those words that God did not speak.

.............

God bless, this trial is adjourned!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Quote:Originally Posted by themidnightcall/ Lynn
Rory responds in red

Sorry I did not see witness # 3 before I posted - actually - God - Jesus - and the Holy Spirit are all three witnessed here in these scriptures.

The seven spirits is the sevenfold spirit of God - meaning the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely, Lynn

rory:
You added that into the text, Lynn. it does not say what you said.

Try to just say what scripture says without adding or wrestling the text:

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,

(WHERE did the other six of them go?)

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Lynn, angels are spirits. Did you read:

hebrews 1:

13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?

You believe the Seven spirits are One Holy Spirit- 3rd person, co-equal??????

Those spirits are not persons or you got a mess of confusion because the trinity just turned into 9 persons.

Please Lynn, there are better verses that come closer to expressing what you THINK is a trinity of multiple persons sharing divinity.

Here's a good one;

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

This one is pretty close:

And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And some people see a trinity here in Genesis 18:2

"And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground"

Lynn, I do believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because the scripture uses those terms, but Joe thinks I am" too picky" because I accept the Word, not the idolatry, explanations, and institutions of men.

>>>>>>>>

Lynn:
Question: Now Rory, we ask, don't you understand the Holy Spirit 3rd Person is also "omni-present"? as the verse says? (Rev.5:6)

Answer Rory: He is? Then how come He is now split into 7 parts and sent into all the world?

How can He be sent to go where He already is omni-present?

John said he saw "elders", he saw one on the throne, he saw the Lamb, he saw seven horns, he saw seven eyes, he saw seven spirits.

You say the seven spirits are the 3rd Holy Spirit omni-present person somehow? -even when John never said that?

Are the 7 eyes one eye? Are the 7 horns one horn? are the 24 elders 1 elder?

Please really think about what you are trying to tell us...

......

We had more than a day to answer the questions 1,2, and 3.

You could not, and when you tried, you were in error.

All witnesses from scripture saw the throne. None of them saw a trinity. Just accept the Word Lynn, that's all...

Therefore we do not put our faith in those words that God did not speak. I can no longer appeal to reasonings, traditions, and unscriptural terminology in regard to what the scripture says. "Un leavened bread" is that. No leaven of men added. The trinity and all of the reasoning and terminology is leaven rooted in apostate Catholicism, it is not in scripture.

Someone does not accept trinity, three persons, all the jargon, words not found in scripture, yet they label us heretics and picky for rejecting the words not found in the Bible. it does get frustrating, sorry.

if you were a Christian in 90 ad. the word trinity was not invented. how could they confess and believe the words not wriiten in scripture?

"that ye might learn in us not to go beyond that which is written" which is exactly what trintarians especially do.

David said Sunday night, he believes in the Father, Son. and Holy Spirit. Which I do also of course.

We do not believe in the words Lynn clings to as if they are in scripture.

"trinity" "God in three persons" "co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent", "three entities" "seven spirits are one Holy Spirit', and so on..

>>>

Originally Posted by HeIsFaithful

brother rory.. i think that is an attempt at a week arguement..

if i were smarter, i'd guess there were other words we use today, that were not used during the time of the beginning of the church.. and that would not make the word we use today any less truth..

the only thing that comes to mind - is when we say we are having communion.. - the Lord table..

i wonder if the early church would have known that to mean what we mean it as.. especially, since there is only the one verse (1 Cor 10:16) which was written in around 55 a.d.

i know that is not a very good example.. but really.. i'm just saying

that what you wrote in the post above, doesn't seem that good of a rebuttal

and regarding 3 persons..okay.. so God is not a person..

but what about the 3 ways in which God has made himself known to us?

the Father

the Son

the Holy Spirit

they are all God.. and yet we know, we worship ONE God

I just don't understand the point of trying to make something that is above our understanding, into a debate...

it is what it is.. whether we understand it or not..

if we understood God.. then.. He wouldn't be God, right??
>>>>>>

Rory:

I pretty much agree with you, God has made Himself known as Father Son Holy Spirit. I have said this about six or seven times.

What we don't agree with adding terms, language, and human reasoning to insert language that is not in scripture. That is what Paul said, and what John the revelator warned.

I agree that even when we do not understand the "mystery of Godliness" as Paul wrote, we are to accept the Word anyway, and not add to it.

The oneness folks wrestle the Father and the Spirit into one Jesus and cannot reconcile the verses such as "The LORD said unto my lord..."

The trinity brethren rely on various sorts of words and explanations not stated in scripture.

that is where the contention comes in. Apostate Christianity departed from the Word and we see the results all around us...

>>>>>>>>

Lynn:

Do you think we could trust the writings of these men?

Barnabas

74 AD in The Letter of Barnabas, he says,

“And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men” (Letter of Barnabas 5).

Ignatius

Ignatius died in 110 AD. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was the bishop of Antioch. He was martyred in Rome only 10 years after John died. Ignatius is as close to the source as you can get. He had several interesting quotes concerning the Trinity doctrine:

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from Jesus Christ, who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born, truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin"

Ignatius also wrote about Jesus’ second coming:

“Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible”.

He believed that only God is was timeless and in his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius stated, “Jesus is God, God incarnate.”

Ignatius also identified Jesus apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit by saying,

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit forever”.

He also believed Jesus was fully God and fully man. He clarified this by saying,

“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)

He clarifies this further in one of his epistles to the church in Ephesus:

“...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.” ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

Also in this epistle, Ignatius again identifies Jesus as God while identifying His personhood:

“For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.” ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)

In his letter to the Trallians, Ignatius refers to Jesus as God and being distinguished from the Father:

( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

"For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father".

These writings are over 200 years before the Council of Nicaea. He wrote during and very shortly after the life of the Apostle John who was called the beloved of Jesus.

Theophilus

Theophilus was the bishop of Antioch and is identified in Luke 1:3 and Acts 1:1. He sent this in a letter to Autolycus in 160 AD (165 years before the Council of Nicaea):

“For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice but what else is this voice but the word of God, who is also his Son.”

GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD - JESUS RAISED HIMSELF FOM THE DEAD - AND THE HOLY SPIRIT RAISED jESUS FROM THE DEAD.

ALSO ALL THREE TOOK PART IN THE INCARNATION.

ALSO ALL THREE ARE OMNIPRESENT - OMNIPOTENT - AND - OMNISCIENT.

ALSO JESUS SAID ANYONE WHO BLASPHMEMES AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD NOT BE FORGIVEN.

I WILL COME BACK SHORTLY AND GIVE THESE SCRIPTURES.

I think we can all see plainly all throughout the scriptures, they speak(?) of one God yet in three persons.

God Bless, Lynn

>>>>>>>

Lynn:

Actually I believe this whole issue coud be put to rest if we would get out of the way and allow the scriptures to speak for themselves - they can not lie!

and God said they would not go void! in otherwards he would show us if we truely seek the truth of his words.

Actually, I am probally thru here, will have to pray about it for I am being convinced perhaps God believes enough has been said here about Himself, his Son and the Holy Spirit - not so sure he is happy with one arguing about his Divinity over and over.

Each side has had it's say - right?

I pray we seek and find the truth, God's truth and not mans, God truth shall set us free, mans sometimes can deceive us.

God Bless, Lynn

>>>>>>>>>>

arcticmonster2003

Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Alaska

Posts: 116

I am starting to see a pattern that I must admit is bothersome. Bear with me and examine whether I speak the truth or not.

There seems to be some different ideas on how we choose to speak about God here.

I do understand that there is the oneness doctrine, and there is the trinity doctrine.

Maybe I'm off here, but apart from the initial post by Beauty for ashes, I have not seen a discussion that is pro-oneness, or a group that is promoting the oneness doctrine.

Here is what I have seen:

1. Some whom hold to the trinity doctrine

2. Some whom have chosen to speak strictly as the scriptures speak (not speaking according to trinity or oneness doctrines)

3. It seems, just by reading the posts, that those whom are defending the trinity doctrine seemingly have not understand that the group whom they are discussing this with, that choose to speak strictly as the scriptures speak are not adherents to the "oneness" doctrine. Its like a hurdle or mental barrier that cannot be overcome or something.

This is how division is created through creeds.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone whom holds to the trinity doctrine, as there have been, and are many Holy spirit filled saints whom have held the trinity doctrine.

I choose to speak of, about God using only the scriptures. I have no need to put him in a box. If I want to say that we have one God, whom has revealed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then I have spoken scripturally and soundly, not elaborating further than the scriptures or adding in words.

Here is the problem, I don't really care if you choose to adhere to the trinity explanation of the scriptures, but the trinity adherers seem to have a huge problem with me sticking strictly with the scriptures. Don't you know that many Holy Spirit filled people choose to do as I do?

It is error to assume that because you have received the Holy Ghost that you hold no false doctrine. It is error to assume because someone else holds what you consider to be false doctrine, that they are not God's precious child and filled with the Holy Ghost.

Bottom line guys, its error to think that since you are filled with the Holy Ghost that you have it all figured out, and that God will not let you believe something that may not be quite right. It is error to think you may call anyone in disagreement with you a false teacher.

Especially when they have made their stand on scriptures alone. It is error to think because you have the "majority vote" that there is no possibility for error.

May I speak strictly as the scriptures? May I say that we have one God whom has revealed himself as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? May I do so without being called a heretic for refusing to box him up in the trinity doctrine, or being assumed to be a part of the oneness doctrine? Can we overcome that hurdle guys?

.>>>>>>>>>>>>

Lynn:

LOOK UP ALSO WHAT THESE EARLY CHURCH SAINTS BELIEVED ABOUT THE GODHEAD/TRINITY- IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT WAS COMMON BELIEF DURING THE EARLY CHURCH AND THEIR BELIEFS JUST CONFIRMS THE WORD OF GOD.

1. Iranaeus

2. Theophilus

3. Justin Martyr

4. Athenagoras

5. Clement Of Alexandria

6.Tertullian

7. Barnabas

8. Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John, Martyred in 160 AD

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rory:
Lynn, in all kindness, that is a nice list, but it is far more important to rely only upon what comes out of the mouth of God.

Here is a list of church fathers that never heard, wrote, or uttered the word "Trinity", Triune, Holy Trinity, "God in Three Persons", co-equal/ co-eternal/ co-existent, God The Son”, which you believe:

1.Jesus

2.Paul

3. James

4. Matthew
5 Mark

6. Luke
7. Barnabbas
8. Timothy
9. Titus

10. John

11. Moses

13. Daniel
14. Joshua

15. none of the judges of israel.

16. David
17. Solomon
18. Isaiah
19. Jeremiah

20. Joel
21. Amos
22. Obadiah
23. Micah
24. Nahum
25. Habakuk
26. Jonah
27. Zephaniah
28. Zechariah
29. Malachi

30 John the Baptist
31. Peter
32. Abraham

33. Noah

34. Elijah

35. Elisha

36. Stephen

None of them ever even heard of the word trinity, because it wasn't invented until 200 years after Christ by apostate church leaders.

The word is an invention of men not found in scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Writing around the year 200, Tertullian was the first theologian to write in Latin (showing a shift from Greek to Latin as the "church language").

He coined the Latin term Novum Testamentum, meaning "New Testament," which is still used today. He also coined the term Trinity to refer to God as Father, Son, and Spirit. He also wrote the first commentary on the Lord's Prayer.

rory: Those who speak "perverse things" are those who add "leaven" to the actual Word of God.

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"